Starter inactive after second day
Hi everyone,
None of my starters make it till maturity. When I start a new culture it stops being active after two days. No matter if it's rye or wheat. I've tried several times.
I used to have no problem maintaining or growing starters but all I get lately is two day's of activity (almost doubling) and then it quits growing visibly. It does smell sour, the second day, but it doesn't rise in the jar.
I quit using a 24/7 electrical heating matt to see what happens. But it still shows the same problem pattern, only some slower.
day temperature: F 66.2 / C 19
night temperature: F 59 / C15
I've tried disinfecting the jars and using different flour. I also tried not discarding any starter before adding water and flower. I always wait until the culture starts to thin out before adding fresh flower. Nothing helps. So weird...
Does anyone have a clue what could be the cause of this? I would really appreciate it a ton + a bit..
Thanks! I'm hoping to get some fresh ideas to try out..
You didn't wait long enough. One more time - flour - water - and the thing missing - time. If you don't wait - you don't get a starter - plan on 3 weeks or more depending on the ingredients. Enjoy!
Thanks Davey. You can't actually know because I didn't say for how long I kept the cultures to see what happened. Which was about 10 days (with feeding) at F 70 / C 21. It should have been plenty to see some growth again, I reckon. But it didn't happen.
Three weeks seems very long to me. I used to have succes in a week. When I used rye I saw a slowdown on the third or fourth day or so. And after a week I used the starter without a problem.
No growth from day two till day 10 isn't normal, I think. Does anyone experience this much time before it get's to double? I never had that myself.
No growth the first week (outside of the initial spurt) - normal. Enjoy!
Debra Winks (she knows her stuff, best listen to her!) posted some time ago that she's never known yeast to start growing in a new starter mix until the pH has dropped to or below 4.1.
Usually the pH starts lowering as a variety of microbes produce some acid. As it lowers some kinds of organisms become less active and some, ones that work best in a lower pH, more. Eventually the pH becomes low enough to favor only the LAB we want, and to allow the dormant yeast to wake up. The recommendation for using pineapple juice initially is to skip right past those early several days of acidification. It's especially useful because it's possible for some nasty organism to take over and stop the progression when the pH isn't low enough.
When it stops bubbling, stop feeding. Leave it for a day or two or even three. Keep warm and stir. Once you see bubbles reappearing start up the feeds again slowly. Not too much too soon. Enough to match the strength of the starter. As it picks up so do the feeds.
The inactive yeast that makes it into the new starter won't start growing until the pH gets low enough. The undesired bacteria that cause early bubbling and off smells also need to be suppressed by some acidity. You should be able to bypass the early stages when the acidity is building up slowly by starting out using pineapple juice instead of water. You could use some other mildly acidic liquid but pineapple juice apparently is just about perfect.
Abe wrote to stop feeding when the new mixture stops looking active. If you keep feeding, you will keep diluting the acidity and the thing may never get going. You only want to feed it when all the usable yeast food (sugars and starches) have gotten consumed.
After the first few days, you won't need the pineapple juice again.
TomP
Thanks Tom,
Good tip, let's see if I can speed up the initial phase a bit. I used some pineapple syrup instead of juice. That's what I had in stock.
Good description Abe, thanks. Short and clear: Feed enough to match the strength of the starter..
Will report back when I am successful... Shall continue for 3 weeks minimum..
It is possible that during culturing, some bacteria are introduced into it, leading to a sour smell and growth stoppage. Try using sterile tools and containers, and ensure stricter hygiene control during the preparation and transfer of the culture.
Bacteria are always introduced, sterile handling or not. I'm not saying that sterilizing would be bad, just that ordinary cleanliness has always been enough for all starters I've made.
What does tend to happen is that people who already have starters and bake with them a lot don't usually have any trouble starting a new one because the desired organisms are hanging around in large numbers already. It can be hard not to succeed, and there is no way to try starting from scratch like a person who is making one for the first time. So people like me - and sourdough baking books - tend to underestimate the difficulties that some people encounter.
If we could have a sterile lab and work dressed in clean lab coats it might be a different story!
@NoNeed,
Please read the following two threads. They explain in more detail why a culture might stop showing activity and how to avoid it by using pineapple juice to start off.
https://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/10856/pineapple-juice-solution-part-1
https://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/10901/pineapple-juice-solution-part-2
thanks, just read it and used the method!
I don't know, just asking...is pineapple syrup going to work like pineapple juice?
I just measured the PH and it seems suitable for the task (not too acidic).
The PH of the rye and wheat cultures I started yesterday are respectively PH 3.1 and PH 5.1
I guess this means the rye culture needs no more feeding soon and maybe water in stead of again pineapple juice/syrup?
@moe C: it's really about the acidity of the pineapple juice or syrup. Though, I guess, juice would be better than syrup because of less sugars. After all we want the yeast to consume the flour starches, not the juice/syrup sugars.
We want the yeast to consume anything they can, so they can stay active and multiply. The yeast actually metabolize the (right kind of) sugars, which may come from the flour mixture or from breaking down of the starches by enzymes.
One day after using pineapple syrup my cultures started to grow again. Both the rye and wheat starters. It's impossible to tell if the growing would have resumed without the syrup of course. But I think it contributed, especially because both cultures started to grow.
The rye culture multiplies without adding syrup more often.
The wheat cultures doesn't so I added syrup again
I say, it was a good tip. I recommend it for ppl wanting to save some time starting a new sourdough culture